S2 E202: Mike Sullivan | Challenging Comfort Zones
“Move the Needle” and Push Past the Limits: Mike Sullivan on Growth, Coaching, and Communication
In the latest episode of the Samson Strength Coach Collective, we sit down with Mike Sullivan, a seasoned strength and conditioning coach and co-owner of Move The Needle. Mike opens up about the challenges of balancing elite coaching with entrepreneurship—and how intentional discomfort has fueled his journey.
From his early days in college athletics to his current role with the San Diego Gulls, Mike’s path is a masterclass in pushing past perceived limits. He talks candidly about how podcasting helped him build a network of high-performing minds, improve communication skills, and form deep, non-transactional relationships with both athletes and coaches.
Key Takeaways:
• Challenging comfort zones is a crucial step in any coach’s evolution.
• Podcasting isn’t just content—it’s a way to build lasting connections and grow.
• Building a supportive coaching community unlocks both personal and professional development.
• Intentionality in time management is essential when juggling coaching and business.
• The athlete experience should be relational, not transactional.
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Connor Agnew:
And if you don’t mind starting over, could do that from the top because we were only about three, four minutes in.
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah, let’s do it, man, let’s do it.
Connor Agnew:
Okay, perfect. All right.
What’s going on Samson strength coach collective listeners on today’s episode. We have Mike Sullivan head straight, the conditioning coach for the San Diego goals. Also owner of move the needle, a co-owner of move the needle. And you host one of the podcasts sponsored by Samson as well. Move the needle podcast.
Mike Sullivan:
Hey man, thanks for having me on. That is all correct.
Connor Agnew:
Well, excellent. I’m glad to hear I got it right. So we’re always very excited to have guests on, then especially ones who host podcasts sponsored by Samson is very exciting for me as well, too. We get to deal with the same people, especially Andy, who is the man and we love him. So always very exciting. Shout out Andy. Absolutely. Well, let’s just dive right into it. Can you give me a background of your career and then what’s brought you to your current endeavors?
Mike Sullivan:
Shout out Andy dude, shout out Andy.
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah, I’ll try to keep it fairly brief. Not incredibly unique in terms of where kind of the normal kind of coming up process of SNC coaches, internships, a couple internships around the country, football, Olympic sports, GA positions, know, full time SNC in college. I have kind of moved around from different avenues within performance. I spent time in college performance, I’ve spent time in private performance.
Because of that private experience, I was able to spend some time in high school. I went back into collegiate performance and now I’m in pro sports. So I’ve kind of hopped around a little bit in terms of the avenues of different performance as opposed to staying in a singular sport or place. But really, I think for myself, I’ve always tried to challenge myself in terms of new experiences, especially when I find myself feeling incredibly comfortable with the place that I’m at. Not that you have to just…
jump ship and find a new place to work. But for me, that kind of has been the route. And now I find myself, like you said, in San Diego, with the Gulls. Also, as you said, the co-owner of a company, Move a Needle, that Hunter Eisenhower, who I met for the first time at UC Davis, when we were coworkers there, we started about two years ago. So shortly after I left Davis, we actually started that together. And we’ve been running and rolling with it ever since.
Connor Agnew:
You said something really interesting within there too, which I think is always what a lot of strength coaches strive for, but I don’t know if they necessarily achieve that, which is understanding that you might be comfortable within a certain position and then adding in a new stimulus to make sure that you’re continuing to improve. Has that been a theme throughout your entire career? Obviously, like you said, sometimes it comes from different moves, but how do you recognize when you might be getting too comfortable and it might be time to add in something new?
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting question. And I don’t think it’s black and white. Unfortunately, I think it’s incredibly gray. And like every time that I’ve taken a new position, there’s been some kind of personal reason behind it. And there’s been some kind of professional reason behind it as well. Right. So it hasn’t always been like, now I’m ready to go take on a new professional task. There’s always been some component of personal too, which makes it unique to me specifically, but
You know, I will say that in each of the positions that I’ve been in, there’s been a moment of, could definitely do this for a real long time and do this at a decent level. And I feel like the circle that I’ve created in this area, not that I’ve outgrown or whatever, but I’m not learning nearly at the same rate as I was in the past. And I think that that happens for everybody. And you either just choose to kind of stay in those circles and continue to do that, which
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that consistency. But for me, it’s always been about how can I push myself and grow, especially right now, like I don’t have a family. Like I have a girlfriend and unfortunately she’s also a and conditioning coach. So we’re both in these two different trajectories of strength and conditioning. We’re both kind of navigating together, you know, but we’re doing it right now in a time where we don’t have a lot of attachment to, you know, a singular city or family or whatever. So.
been like, hey, let’s push ourselves to grow as much as possible right now. And for me, that’s meant, you know, working a lot of different avenues of performance and then just applying myself as best as I can in those different avenues.
Connor Agnew:
I love that. And you know, it’s always tough, especially with the girlfriend conversation, but then to have a fellow strength and conditioning coach, I can’t imagine that super easy.
Mike Sullivan:
on the other side.
Mike Sullivan:
man. it is not. It’s worth it. It’s worth it. It’s not easy.
Connor Agnew:
Hahaha.
No, no, no, not at all. I mean, again, you guys would probably bounce some ideas off each other though, too. It probably is a good hive mind there.
Mike Sullivan:
From that respect, think it’s like, it’s so nice to be able to tell someone about a very context specific thing about your day that no one else would understand except for another S &C coach. And like, you just wouldn’t be able to have that conversation if the person that you’re in a relationship didn’t know exactly what you’re talking about. So from that perspective, it is kind of nice. And then you catch yourself talking about S &C all the time because I go home from my day job as an S &C coach. I talked to my girlfriend on FaceTime for a few hours. We talked about S &C.
Connor Agnew:
Mmm.
Mike Sullivan:
And then I talked to like Hunter, my co-owner of Move the Needle and all we’re talking about is performance. I’m like, dude, I haven’t talked about anything besides performance in the last three days. Like I got to go see someone who knows nothing about this or have some kind of conversation outside of it. so you can get kind of caught in it a lot, but it’s, it’s, it’s worth it. That’s for sure.
Connor Agnew:
Well, I love it from my personal experience. My fiance is the dietitian here, but we still get a little bit of a parody amongst that because her issues are different than my issues, right? Especially when you look at
Mike Sullivan:
nice. Nice.
Mike Sullivan:
That’s a perfect like, that’s a perfect relationship. That’s a, you know, close enough to know, but not too close where you’re, you’re playing with fire. You know, that’s good. That’s good. like that.
Connor Agnew:
100%. And that’s what the really nice part about it is, like exactly like you said, she knows and she’s aware. She knows about who I’m talking about as well too, because we see these people on the same basis. But at the same time, she gives me a different perspective. And then ultimately I think where it hurts the athletes is if they miss a meeting with her, then I know for a fact and I hear immediately. And so I know before the head coaches even know sometimes too, because she’ll be a little upset and say,
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah, that’s good one.
Connor Agnew:
Hey, your favorite player just missed a meeting with me and now he’s not my favorite player anymore.
Mike Sullivan:
I’d say understandable.
Connor Agnew:
And so again, I love that you are pushing the limits of trying to understand and continually improve. You know, what would your advice be to coaches who feel that they may be comfortable? And like you said, there was a personal reason behind the moves and obviously the best advice isn’t just to move all the time, right? And not saying that’s what you’ve done, but at the same time, some coaches who listen to this may be thinking that, maybe I might be in that comfortable position. What advice would you have for them?
Mike Sullivan:
You know, something that I think about all the time and I don’t know who to give credit for this, but I know it wasn’t me. Like I know it was someone else much smarter than me, but it’s, it’s the idea of, you are the sum of the five people you spend the most time around. Right. And. I just constantly evaluate that is what I would say. And like for myself, that’s what I see. Like I seek a circle of five that is better than me, that that forces me to elevate myself and whether that’s, that’s from the position I’m in, in my day to day job.
Or luckily for me, because of Move the Needle, because of the things that we do and the coaches that we reach out to, the coaches that we talk to and the relationships that we create, that five might become five people across the country, across the world. So I’ve always thought about that concept. if you’re not inspired by those five people, then maybe that means you’re comfortable, you know, because I think that if the people that you’re just surrounded by aren’t constantly challenging you, you’re just not swimming in a big enough pond.
You know, and, and that oftentimes is a, is a instigator for growth. if that’s what you’re looking for.
Connor Agnew:
Yeah, I agree 100%. And I think back to the conversations I have with other coaches too, are we pushing ourselves to get better? Or are we kind of just sitting there commiserating and saying, yeah, that sucks. I feel the same way about this issue too, instead of actually pushing each other to understand it better.
Mike Sullivan:
And I think that’s like, it’s so common in essence. Like, I think it’s so, so common in essence to get that, like commiseration and strength and conditioning, think is rampant where you get people who are just sitting on a staff, just complaining about everything. And it’s like, like this is like, sometimes you do, you just need to like, you just need to vent or talk about it. But like at the end of the day, like if that is the majority of the conversation you’re having with the people that are surrounding you, it’s like, it is such a negative way to operate in the world.
Connor Agnew:
And then you wonder why people don’t have longevity within strength and conditioning, right? But then there’s a common issue where everybody complains to each other all the time.
Mike Sullivan:
Right.
Yeah. Yeah. So that’s why I like in having movement, like that’s why I think for me, I don’t necessarily need to have, you know, the five people in my day to day life who are like those are the people that I’m really looking at and trying to elevate myself because I have people like Hunter who I talk to every single day, you know, and he is a phenomenal, he’s a world class coach. And so seeing the things that he does, it’s like, that’s inspiring to me. And I have people like Tess, there’s my girlfriend who I think is doing incredible things. It’s like, like right there, I have two people like we talked about, maybe it’s
My two closest relationships are also, you know, personal and professional relationships. Let’s, you know, pros and cons of that, but you know, it doesn’t necessarily have to be the people that are surrounding you. Can you create that elsewhere? And so, if you don’t have it, that doesn’t mean to go move to find it, but you do have to do something, you know, whether it’s reaching out to coaches or finding some other outlet that can give you that.
Connor Agnew:
Yeah, you know, and it’s funny too, it doesn’t even have to be within training conditioning. I remember at jujitsu classes, I met a very successful lawyer who I was able to talk through a lot of things and they give you a different perspective too. So like you said, it doesn’t have to be moving. It doesn’t even necessarily have to be reached out to other strength coaches. It could just be people within your daily life who successful within their own avenues as well.
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah, Hunter and I just recorded a podcast. I don’t know when this one will come out, but we just recorded a podcast that was really our first ever non-training podcast. And it was just a round table about developing business within performance. And not a single word was spoken about training, but something that we have found so interesting of late has been about like building businesses because that’s what we’re trying to do with this little LLC, little small business that we’re trying to grow and scale.
And so like for us, like the conversations that we have around training are like, still have this conversation all the time between the two of us, but we’re also constantly talking about building a business and how to scale and what that world looks like. And so we’re reaching out to people that we would have never reached out to in the past because that’s now become front of mind for us. So it definitely is a diversifying experience. And then it just pushes you into avenues. I never thought that I would be like seeking out people to help me grow a business.
while I am working for a pro hockey team in San Diego for this remote business that I’m working that is actually headquartered in Phoenix, Arizona.
Connor Agnew:
You get led to very different avenues, places you never thought you would go. But I’m glad you bring up the business because I’m curious about this. I think back to, think this is kind of a common thing that a lot of coaches can see is that they meet somebody that they worked with previously. You develop a really good relationship. You guys just kind of hit it off. And then the idea is to let, let’s start a business together and let’s get this rolling. then 99 % of the time it never starts. How did this idea?
Mike Sullivan:
No.
Connor Agnew:
begin and then how did you guys actually make it into a full business and it fully came to fruition?
Mike Sullivan:
It’s, was, it was a long time in the making, you Hunter and I sort of worked, Hunter and I got hired together at UC Davis the exact same time. they had two open positions and we filled them. So we started the exact same time. We got along really well the entire time we were there. You know, I ended up leaving, I ended up going from Davis to Chicago for a power performance position. He was there. We continued our relationship and, and we would always just like send each other stuff on social media. You know, I was like, Hey, look how stupid this is. It was exactly what we were just talking about in terms of like commiserating about how dumb.
performances and we were just both frustrated by what was considered to be education from the field. You know, cause we were like, is taking your time to like learn about all this stuff is not applicable to actually helping athletes get better. So we were like, Hey, what if instead of just complaining about all the time, we, did something to try to create an educational platform that we were actually both proud of. And so it started with like, let’s just, let’s do podcast.
And we were told by some people who had podcasts, don’t do a podcast. Right? Like it’s an absolute nightmare to do a podcast on do a podcast. Um, and they said, whatever you do, if you do do a podcast, don’t try to do it every single week because it’s impossible to do that. So we were like, all right, we’re to do a podcast and we’re gonna do it every single week because that’s the, that’s the path to success. thought so, um, it just started at that. And then we’re like, okay, bare minimum, we’re going to learn a lot for ourselves. Selfishly we’re going to a lot.
And we’re not be able to network with people all over the world. Like that’s in and of itself. That’s worth it. And then for me and him, we were like, if we are going to do this, we’re not going to listen to those people. And we’re going to say, we want to be consistent because I think that kills podcasts most frequently is, is lack of consistency. know, you listen to a great podcast for two and a half months. You’re like, this is awesome. You don’t hear them for another three or whatever it is. Right. So we’re like, as long as we’re consistent.
We honestly don’t really care what the reception, we just care about learning for ourselves, putting decent content out there and networking with people. And so that’s all it started as. That’s all it started as. And at first, like even that itself was a lot for us. It was a lot to try to manage. Like we talked about a lot to manage my schedule, his schedule, our guest schedule. It was a lot to try to figure out how do you co-host a podcast and figure out the rhythm of that. but now we’re.
Mike Sullivan:
You know, now we’re 90, 90 some odd weeks of consecutive podcasts release. You know, we’ve done probably over, you know, a hundred, 110 hours of podcast conversation and recording. And that’s happened over the course of almost the last two years now. And over those last two years, it’s slowly grown from, this is a podcast. Okay. We really enjoy this and we’re getting great feedback. Let’s continue to push the envelope in terms of what we can create in terms of the educational platform space. So.
We’ve continued to do things. We’ve hosted a couple of online conferences. We have another one coming up. We have even more coming down the line this year. So it’s really slowly evolved. It was one very specific thing, this podcast, that slowly kind of branched off into different areas that we’re just super excited about. And we got a ton of fulfillment for because at the end of the day, like our work, like the work that we put in directly benefits the two of us. You know, it’s not some organization or team.
that gets the benefit from it and we don’t see that. It’s directly correlated to our success as well. So it’s been a lot of fun. It’s a lot of hours and it’s a lot of different skills that we’ve developed that we never would have thought that we would develop in the past, but it’s been totally rewarding.
Connor Agnew:
I just, can identify with a lot of that, right? And especially the weekly podcast release, right? Everybody, I’ve had many people say before, it’s, you there’s no way that you should be doing that. And it’s just like, well, it becomes a baseline. Like you start to get used to it. It’s almost like any other type of aspect of training, right? You know, once you introduce the stimulus, you get used to the stimulus and then you understand how to use it. So it, the once a week I support it. And I think it’s a great idea for you guys.
Mike Sullivan:
You know, yeah. So when I was at TC Boots, I was the facility in Chicago that I was at, there was, there was four of us full-time coaches and we had our owner and of the four of us, two of them already had a podcast. So I was a third of our, of the four of us to have a podcast and which is nice in the private space like that kind of stuff is super encouraged. But the other two were like, man, like be careful here because like, if you say you’re gonna do once a week and you go for 10 weeks and you die off for a little bit, like that’s, that’s going to kill your podcast. So.
So for me and Hunter’s idea, like if we’re going to commit to this, like we’re truly going to commit to this. And, and then like even this last year, Hunter, Hunter had his second kid, Hunter and Leah, his wife had their second kid right at the exact same time that I was in the process of moving to San Diego. So it was like, dude, what, like we have to keep our podcast live during this and like, dude, this is what we committed to. We said we’re going do it every other part and move the needle.
not grow at all in this period, but at the bare minimum, we’re going to like make sure we record and put some pods out. And we were able to, we got through it and luckily like we’re able to like coordinate ourselves. So it’s like, Hey, let’s record four or five and use three weeks or whatever. So we have a nice bank and we don’t have to always be, desperate for episodes, but, but it’s actually not as, as bad of a rhythm as people might think. Like, man, you’re like consistently putting out once a week. It’s not as bad as it seems.
So there are times where it’s like, dude, we have nothing in the bank right now. We like, we have to record right now. So sometimes it gets stressful, but now it’s been really good.
Connor Agnew:
A couple of the solo episodes have been a case of me being lackluster and getting guests on. So I understand that 100%. What’s something that surprised you about doing a podcast? Because for myself, I think a very surprising aspect of it is just how much fun it actually is. I knew it would be fun. I knew it would be great to connect with other coaches and build my network a little bit. But I didn’t realize how much I would actually be laughing or how much I would really enjoy it and hearing the stories of other coaches. What’s something that’s surprised you?
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah.
Mike Sullivan:
I think like pleasantly so is the, not just like the conversations and relationships you develop with your guests because of like, you see them on online and you have a great conversation, but then to see those relationships continue to develop outside of the platform into the world, right? Like we’ve had a handful of guests that we’ve been on and I’ve met for the first time when I’ve sat down to record with them that I now have a much more consistent relationship with.
outside of all of it. For example, yesterday I was texting Jesse Green, who’s the director of sports science with the Pitchford Penguins, and we were talking about some of the new updates to Tentenny sprint. And we were talking about some of it and we were trying to like, were kind of going back and forth and like, that’s just a relationship that, like first time I ever met him was episode nine of Moving the Needle when he sat down with us. We had him back on episode 70 or 80, something like whatever. And like that has surprised me, not because I never,
thought that was going to happen necessarily or like, that’s shocking to me. But to be able to rely on those people that we’ve had come on in other aspects of life has been just so valuable. just from like what I’ve learned and what Hunter has learned from it, like, of course we knew we were going to learn a lot from it, but just how influential 110 hours of just being able to have conversation with, you know, world-class people. Like that’s just…
But you can’t get that. You you can’t, you can’t get Stu McMillan online and just ask him questions for an hour and 20 minutes. Like you just can’t do that. You know? So, so for us, like it’s so selfishly for us, it’s an incredible tool. And, you know, I don’t think we really realized at first, it was like, you know, we’ve been able to just ask people to come on and they’re happy to do it. They want to do it. And we can ask them whatever we want, whatever interests us. And that’s, that’s such valuable to be able to take that kind of time out of other people’s lives. So that.
That kind of relationship that’s been able to stem away from, from moving the needle from the podcast to life. And then just like, just the unbelievable amount of education that we get out of it. It’s just, it’s really such, so worth all the time that we put into it.
Connor Agnew:
Yeah, I’ve had people ask me before how do you come up with questions like when you’re on the actual show and it’s like well It’s mostly just questions that I really want to know like I want to know the answer to these things
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah, it’s just really interesting. Right, 100%.
Connor Agnew:
And I like doing it at the end of the day too, know, as preferable for me because something probably happened during one of my sessions today that I know that this person is going to be able to help me with. I love calling it, I love calling it selfish because at the end of the day, like I get to just ask the questions that I want to know the answers to. And I feel like it makes me way better as a coach.
Mike Sullivan:
100%, 100%. And we’ve thought about like, do we ask people about like, hey, can you us questions for this guest coming up? And we’re like, honestly, like, no, I don’t want to do that because I don’t want to waste time asking what other people are interested in. I want to know what I’m interested in. And luckily that often aligns with what other people are also interested in. But it’s just like the completely unfiltered access to someone for an hour, an hour and a half, whatever it is, is like, you can’t get that.
Connor Agnew (20:35.8)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Sullivan:
unless you’re hosting a podcast because you’re not like, Hey, Stu, can I call you for an hour and half? We can just talk. He’s like, I mean, do you know how valuable that guy’s time is? so it’s, it’s, it’s a really, it’s a really incredible in, in so many different regards.
Connor Agnew:
Yeah, there’s a consulting fee.
Connor Agnew:
You know, I agree and I think it’s just been nothing but beneficial for me as well, too. I mean, even the times where it be stressful to try to get these things done, it ends up always being a big reward. And you know, there’s just like anything, any lift that we may, a person might go into or practice or might be times where it’s like, man, I kind of just want to knock this one out a little bit, you know, like I’m feeling a little fatigued. And then those typically end up being my favorite episodes.
Mike Sullivan:
Right.
Mike Sullivan:
Oh yeah, absolutely. oftentimes I feel so much better after than before because I’m like, dude, we gotta do it again. I’m like, oh, this was a great episode or whatever. And you know, we, I once woke up at 4 45 to record an episode in the morning with someone because they were on East coast time and they’re like, I got to do it in the morning. And I was on Pacific time. I’m like, dude, like, I hope this is a good episode because I’m waking up at 4 30 to get them online.
Connor Agnew:
Yes.
Connor Agnew:
Ha
Mike Sullivan:
barely awake, like let’s have a great conversation. And like those end up being great conversations. You’re like, I’m glad I did that. So, how I feel before is not indicative of how the episodes gonna actually go. And it’s just like, hey, this is always worth my time.
Connor Agnew:
Yeah, I call it energizing or guests have heard me say that many times. It’s very energizing. And again, I I can not, I won’t use the word commiserate, right? Cause I’ve already used it in a negative context, but I can identify with a lot of things that you’re saying. And as a business owner as well, I’m curious, like what are the challenges that you faced being a full-time strength coach and owning a business? And again, you’re clearly somebody who
wants to do something well, it is not something where it’s like, okay, I just have a side business, move the needle, and we’re just gonna do this podcast and enjoy it. You talk about your expansion and trying to be better all the time. What are some of the challenges that you faced in that experience?
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah, I mean, the really obvious one and maybe not a great answer is just where do you commit your time to? You know, obviously like your day job takes time, you know, and that takes time and you want to do a great job. Not that me spending time on moving needle stuff takes away from that. I think it actually elevates that because I’ve, because moving needle is such an amazing learning tool that I can then apply to my job, but really just deciding where you’re going to spend your time.
And the really great thing about Move the Needle because I have a co-owner and Hunter, it ebbs and flows between the two of us. There are times when I’m really, really busy and I’m like, he puts a team on his back. And there are times where he’s really, really busy and he puts a team on it and I put the team on my back. So just deciding like, there’s so many different avenues now at least that we’re trying to branch off into that it’s like, okay, the podcast has to stay as high of level as we possibly can make it.
We want to make sure that we’re doing a great job because we have this symposium coming up, the marketing symposium. We have different programs that we’ve written that we want to make sure that are front of mind. Some people we have a couple other products that we’re working on right now that have taken a lot of time and effort and energy on the front end to create. So at first, when we just had the podcast, it was almost overwhelming because it was like, we have our day job on this podcast and we’re adding a lot to it. Now it’s like, okay, we have our day job on podcast. That’s become much more manageable.
but we’re constantly adding more and more things to our plate. So the easy answer for me is just where do you commit your time to? Unfortunately, you know, the time of the day is very set. You you can’t create anymore. So I just have to be really, really efficient in how I go about my business. And, know, there are some days where I get done on my due. I totally wasted so much time today. And then there are some days where I’m like, okay, I need to, I know I have to get done. I have an episode that comes up every single Wednesday morning, first thing. So.
that plus everything else that we’re doing, like there just has to be intentionality to it. So that the time part, the time part can be tough, but because those things that we’re working on, oftentimes like you said, is super energizing. It doesn’t feel like, I gotta grind my way through this. It’s like, no, I just gotta like sit down and.
Connor Agnew:
You know, you said that working on Move the Needle elevates your performance as a coach as well. Obviously, we just touched on one of the ways was, you you can obviously speak with other coaches and spend time with them and learn from them. What are some other ways that it’s enhanced your ability to coach?
Mike Sullivan:
I think just, and I’m sure you can relate to this, that the first part is, I think I’ve become a better communicator because I’ve spent over a hundred hours just talking to world-class coaches. And not only that, but I then edit all of our episodes. So it’s like, then I go back and I hear myself talk and I hear Hunter talk and hear our guests talk. And I’m like, man, there’s, I’m incredibly inefficient sometimes when I speak, you know, I go back and listen to myself, ask a question and it’s.
Super simple question and I turn it into a two minute question. I’m like, what am I doing? Can I just kind of say a say a few less arms and butts and us and whatever and then can I just get to the point a little more concisely so I think as a communicator I have gotten better But then in terms of the actual practical part of my job the X’s knows and the programming and the periodization of what I do our Podcast specifically like we dive deep into a lot of different topics
And when we choose those things and we want, we want to dive, it’s, it’s really intentional. We want to get as far into the weeds as we can possibly go. And in part, because I think a lot of podcasts in the performance space are very superficial where let’s talk about this topic for 10 minutes. I’ll talk about this topic for 10 minutes. I’ll talk about this topic for 10 minutes. And, you know, we’ll go, Hey, let’s talk about this topic for 90 minutes. Let’s, let’s, you know, leave no stone unturned. So being able to do that.
over and over and over again with all these different coaches, you look at your own program and you go, I can audit my own programming because I’m learning so much constantly. And so I’ll look at my programming is like, this has shades of Jordan Vanilla. This has shades of Steve McMillan. This has shades of Jesse Green. This has shades of Stephanie Mock. And it’s not that like you are now giving up who you are as a coach, but you’re just taking all this information, which is awesome. And then you’re saying, how can I apply this in certain ways that make sense?
contextually to my situation that might elevate it. And so when you’re able to do that and then you’re able to create that marriage, it’s like, wow, like I’m super proud of this new product. And I do think the one thing that Hunter and I have talked about is we’re constantly having conversations with people that we consider to be world-class human beings and world-class practitioners. We expect that now all the time. And all the coaches that we interact with, whether it’s our own staffs, people will be me out in the world,
Mike Sullivan:
we find ourselves expecting to have these world-class conversations with everybody. And it’s like, that’s not the case. Not every single coach we interact with is gonna give us that. And then when we don’t get that, we’re like, what’s going on with these people? Why can’t we find these incredible conversations in every corner of profession? It’s like, that’s just not applicable because we’re specifically going out, finding these people that we’re super interested in, and then thinking that’s gonna be the conversation elsewhere, if that makes sense. So, not to sound like a…
Connor Agnew:
you
Mike Sullivan:
I don’t know, to S and C uppity, but we’ve been able to like create, think, great conversation and great community that we also just, expect that in everywhere we go within the performance.
Connor Agnew:
Trust me, there’s a reason I host the art side of straight conditioning type podcast versus the science side, because there’s certainly something that I’m better at if we look at those two sides of straight conditioning. But I laugh too, because when you talk about the ums and buts and even me just saying because now like my first ever solo episode, I had to shut it off. I think my fiance and I were traveling to Charlotte for the day and she was like, we should listen to this podcast and it’s like, okay, we put it on.
Mike Sullivan:
Right.
Connor Agnew:
And then I had to head about seven ums within the first couple seconds. I immediately had to shut it off. I was like, cannot listen to this.
Mike Sullivan:
It really is, it really is, man, this really is not working for me. It really is amazing when you go back and you listen to your talk, because I think everybody, like everybody knows, right? I don’t like listening to myself talk. But I’ve not, you me, when you go and you do it for a hundred hours, you’re like, it becomes very normal, right? So it doesn’t, it doesn’t bother you anymore. But it’s like, you really, you really understand how you communicate with other people. And it was incredible. The first couple episodes.
Connor Agnew:
Okay.
Connor Agnew:
Mm-hmm.
Mike Sullivan:
how annoyed I would get with myself and how annoyed I would get with Hunter. And sometimes how annoyed I would get with our guests. And then it’s just this process of, okay, I’m editing less and less and less less less. And there are days where I’m not working and I have two computers open or whatever. One I’m editing the podcast on, one I’m just doing work on and I’m just letting it play. And all my ear is really listening for are those big blank spaces or ums and buzz and whatever.
nicely like luckily they’ve gotten fewer and fewer and fewer not perfect by any stretch of the imagination I still do it way too frequently but there is something to actually practicing then hearing yourself do that and hearing how ineffective you are as a communicator and then actively trying to work on that so it’s something that Hunter and I talk about all the time it’s hey be more concise yes you know tell your thing do your thing go where we want to go but don’t do it in a way that’s going to completely lose the interest of everybody because
you can’t actually get to what you want to say.
Connor Agnew (30:21.9)
Yeah, it may be a little bit different for you, because obviously there’s not as much recruiting within the professional space. But I’ve noticed my recruiting visits are a lot better because I used to hammer. mean, when I get anxious or I get like, have a big recruit on campus, I literally start going rapid fire. It’s like an AK-47 just getting out all my words and just trying to make sure I get to every point. And then I’m talking for 30 minutes and I’ve said probably 45 minutes worth of stuff at that point.
Mike Sullivan:
Nice.
Connor Agnew:
And so I’ve noticed it certainly made me slow down and be intentional. We had a recruiting visit this morning too. And now I got a good tip from another strength coach, Darby Rich. He was like, hey man, just tell them you talk fast at the start. So they expect it.
Mike Sullivan:
Very nice.
Mike Sullivan:
No, I like it, man. think it applies in so many ways because especially as an SNC coach, your whole day is in terms of interaction with other people. Right? So it makes sense that you’re constantly trying to improve your ability to communicate with those people. And for us to be able to listen to ourselves talk all the time, I mean, it’s so valuable. whenever I edit podcasts, it’s always on, you know, 1.6, 1.7 speed because
I can’t listen to it, it just takes way too long. when you hear, so ums happen way faster, right? It’s like, whatever, whatever, um, whatever, whatever. So when you’re hearing like an um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, you’re just like, oh my God, that is so hard to listen to. So you very quickly start to audit yourself as a speaker and then you just kind of see it happening in your life.
Connor Agnew:
Mm-hmm.
Connor Agnew:
Yeah, I’m fortunate enough to not have to edit our podcast, which is very beneficial for me. And I apologize to our current editor who has to listen to me talk nonstop.
Mike Sullivan:
You know, honestly, I like it just because I know that if I hear something on the podcast and we’re talking about something, I find it really interesting. I’m going to go back through it again, you know, and I’m going to take notes on it because we create show notes as well. So it actually is, is pretty nice for me. Sometimes it’s like, dude, it’s Tuesday night. I haven’t edited near as much as I should have. I don’t love editing in those times, but, it’s, it’s, it’s actually a super valuable tool for me.
Connor Agnew:
Yeah, I think again, there’s pros and cons to each side of it. Like we were talking about pre-show, having two hosts versus one host, there’s certainly pros and cons. One thing I’m very curious about is that you’ve coached at almost pretty much every level that you can for performance, right? You’ve worked with youth athletes, collegiate, high school and professional levels. What’s something that you’ve taken from each level and you’ve been able to interpret and take to another level? So something that you’ve learned in collegiate that you can apply to prove or vice versa.
Mike Sullivan:
I think that the thing that I found that oftentimes ties together coaching, and this is somewhat cliche. It is cliche, but, but bear with me is that the program matters, but it doesn’t. And I know that everybody has heard that before, but whether it’s, it’s an eight year old who probably has a ceiling of playing JV soccer.
or a 22 year old who’s a top 10 pick in NFL draft, or if it’s a 78 year old who’s competing in master’s track, wherever it is. It’s truly about how they experience the coach within the training session that dictates the training session. Yeah, the program’s important. You can’t be an idiot with what you’re doing, but in a room full of coaches, if those clients or those athletes walk in,
They’re going to choose you based on the experience, not based on, based on the experience they have as an athlete, not based on, that guy is an elite level programmer, right? It’s going to be because of what is the experience that they have when they’re with you. That’s going to be what dictates whether they want to continue to train with you or how successful your training sessions are. And I think you see it so prominently, especially in professional sport. I take the NBA for example, right? So many guys have their guy.
Right. So many guys have the guy that travels sometimes with the team and just trains that one athlete. Not that let’s say the strength and conditioning staff of performance out of that team has any better or any worst level of X’s and O’s programming ability in the, this singular private guy. Right. It’s just clearly the experience that’s one person gives to that NBA player is an elite level experience.
And that’s what’s so valuable to all these guys. So, you know, I’ve been around programs and I’ve been around coaches and I’m like, I wouldn’t do this from a program standpoint. would not do this. I don’t agree with this, but absolutely for, for absolute certainty, those athletes would stick with that coach through thick and thin. And I’ve been around coaches who have phenomenal lockdown programs and it’s like, yeah, whatever.
Mike Sullivan:
you know, take it or leave it, you know, for the athlete. truly what, whatever age you are, whatever sport you play, whether you’re 10 years old, whether you’re 30 years old, whether you’re 80 years old, like how the athlete is experiencing themselves when they’re with you overrides everything. And so I think that’s, that’s why I think that great coaches can, can go from sport to sport, from program to program, from, culture to culture and not miss a beat.
is because it’s not about, can only work with baseball players. I can only work with hockey players, whatever. It’s like, it’s just what is the athletes experience with you, that makes sense.
Connor Agnew:
No, I think it makes complete sense. And I think, again, it ties back to, like you said, you’re not stuck to one culture. You’re not feeling like you have to do just this one athlete, one sport, which is the kind of trend that strength and conditioning is going in right now. And you can see is really following. What is something that you think you provide with your experience? And I’m the one asking the question, so this is not bragging, but what do you think you provide with your experience for the athletes that makes them want to come back to you?
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah, I think what I’ve said for a long time, and again, this is like, don’t want to stray too far into being cliche, is that when I’m working with an athlete, the relationships that we have are not ever going to be transactional relationships, right? And I do think truly that oftentimes relationships between coach and athlete are transactional relationships is a big part of the reason that I’m going to coach you and I’m going to coach you hard.
is because if I coach you hard and you do well, that means that I can move up in my career, which is completely the truth within sport, right? If a coach proves success with a group of athletes, they’re going to elevate themselves within the field. And the way that I look at coaching is what I want to do is I want to help athletes take control of their story or their journey as athletes.
Whether that’s through some kind of physical training or whatever, but it’s not because I want to move up in the world. If I wanted to move up in the world of performance, I wouldn’t have jumped from Avenue to Avenue from sport to sport. I would have stayed in a sport at a school or whatever and just work my way up. But for me, my long-term goal is not to, to end up becoming the, I don’t know, director of health and performance for the Anaheim Ducks. No, I mean, I’m going to continue to try myself if that’s where it ends up in the future. Maybe that.
Maybe it’ll happen, but it’s not because of a transactional relationship that I have with the athletes that I work with. And I think that I like to think that that is apparent through the way that I go about my relationship with the athletes that I work with. It’s not about like, Hey, I’m going to do this for you. Okay. What are you going to do for me? I’m not expecting them to do anything else for me in the backend because what I want to see is I want to see the work that we do together, help them take control of what they’re doing. And then personally.
Whether I move up in the world as a performance coach. Well, I know there are things that I’m also working on that I’m really, really excited about that are going to elevate me. Like move the needle, for example, right? Move the needle is like a great example of that of I don’t need to continue to move up in the world of performance, um, in terms of logo or whatever, because I have my own logo that I’m really proud of that I want to build. And so I think that takes some of the pressure off of the idea of. I need to chase different logos because I think at the end of the day, like if I end up in five, six, 10 years, 15 years.
Mike Sullivan:
and with the needles in my full-time jobs, I would be totally happy with that. And that’s not me chasing any logo that someone else has control over.
Connor Agnew:
And so you’re process oriented versus result oriented.
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah, I think so. I think definitely there are results that I want and there are results that I want to see the athletes get, but it’s not because I want to see you get these results because therefore it means that I can have some kind of success adjacent to that. If I work with an athlete and you make it to wherever you want to make it to, that is super, super cool. And that’s something that I can talk about in the future of these experiences that we’re able to share.
Connor Agnew:
Mm-hmm.
Mike Sullivan:
But I’m not trying to leverage that now into a position, you know, upstairs or wherever that might be.
Connor Agnew:
No, I think that makes complete sense. like you said, you said, think it’s very clear to the athlete. The athletes are very smart. They know when the coaching is like that and they know exactly when the coach is looking to get something out of them and the quality relationship plummets in my opinion. I think it’s the same as you see. When you look and work with these athletes, do you directly communicate those things with them or do you just show it by your relationship and how you interact with them on a daily basis?
Mike Sullivan:
I don’t think I would directly communicate that with them. think it’s more just, I think it’s more of challenging athletes to understand like what’s important to them and what’s at stake for them. know, Hey, I want to make it to whatever. Okay. Well, if you don’t, so what it’s like, I guess I’ll just do something else or it’s like challenging. What’s at stake challenging. What’s important to them. And then if, if it’s like, Hey, this is clearly like something that I, I really want to do. really want to get to.
then it’s, it’s okay. How can we work together and make that happen? And for me, that’s what I want to see as a coach is I want to see athletes be able to, because I think, you know, and you say that every level, you see it collegiately, you see it professionally, you see it in high school, Of I could be everything you want as an athlete and as whatever, but my ability to demonstrate that might be completely hamstrung by the decision-making process of people who.
I have no power over, right? So whether that’s a coach who decides to not give you playing time or an organization that decides to trade you off somewhere else because they think something else is a little bit shinier. So for me, it’s about, Hey, can I help you take some control of that yourself? Cause I think that’s super, super powerful, right? To be able to have control over your own story and what you want to be able to accomplish. And then for myself, it’s like,
If you’re able to do that, that’s really, really great for me. But then for me, it’s like, okay, we have these great shared experiences now. That’s really, really impactful for me. And then for myself, it’s like, I have these other things I’m also working on in the background. Again, like, like move a needle and whatever I’m doing there. That’s, that’s super, energetic, energizing for me, rewarding for me as well.
Connor Agnew:
I like the reality of control, right? Because this is a field where there’s so many uncontrollable. giving the athlete ownership of what they can take control of, I think is really important.
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah.
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, um, I think most strength coaches, like we’ll understand that because most strength coaches are failed athletes. You know, it’s like, yeah, I shattered my leg and told her in places. That’s why I now am a strength coach. Like, I feel like you hear that story all the time. So it’s like, okay, like there were things that happened in your career that like, happened that, that derailed your career. now, so I think a lot of us are in that place of like, Hey, we do, we are coaching because of something similar to that. Like we do want to see that, but how many of those coaches.
actually do that every single day as opposed to that’s why I coach. But, but really it’s because I want to be an SEC basketball strength coach or I want to be an SEC football strength coach. because, that’s really, really cool. And I think a lot of strength coaches also go through that phase of like, want to go to the great logo. want to, I want to see what it’s like at the top because that’s really important to me. And maybe, maybe coaches do have to go through that. Like go through that, see what it’s like. And then you realize it’s probably not the most amazing thing in the world.
And what’s actually really rewarding is it is exactly why you actually got into coaching in the first place. Right. So.
Not to over complicate it, but I think it’s a roller coaster for lot of coaches, you know.
Connor Agnew:
No, a thousand percent. And I think the grass is always greener. If you go cliche, I’ll go cliche as well too, right? The grass is always greener is one of the hardest mentalities to deal with in coaching. Yeah.
Mike Sullivan:
100%. 100%. 100%. I mean, not that I’m any demonstration because I have jumped around, but how many coaches do you know that have moved their family 12 different times in 12 different years? And better in a new home, better in a new whatever. it’s just like, and again, that’s part of why Hunter and I were so steadfast on our commitment to move the needle is because while we see that so rampantly within performance, it’s like, we don’t want to be
you know, at the mercy of trying to constantly chase the next great position. We want to find something that’s great for us. And then we want to build something for ourselves. And if that gives us the freedom to be where we want to be, spend time with people we want to spend time that’s super powerful.
Connor Agnew:
Yeah. Yeah. What’s interesting too is those coaches who I see jump around a lot. And like you said, you you moved around a lot too, but you have a very good reason for it, which is pushing yourself. And if it was truly for you to get to the highest level, I think that’s a great point. You would stay at one spot or you would try to continually make the moves within same organizations or whatever. But the coaches who do kind of chase that super high level, think might counter-argue and say, well, I still build great relationships with the athletes. then
My fear is always, does it complicate your personal relationships as well, whether it be friends or family? Because those things are not easy to maintain when you move around all the time. It can be very difficult.
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah, I would suspect that failed relationships are incredibly high percentage in trending condition catches. Incredibly high.
Connor Agnew:
Yeah, that’s a great suspicion.
Mike Sullivan:
Now I say that as someone who’s in a relationship with a strength and conditioning coach, so not to change that. But we’ve been through the rain, we’ve been through a lot of different moves apart. So I think we’ll figure it out and be okay. But yeah, it’s definitely a profession that rewards not really thinking for yourself and just doing a lot of work. And that is unfortunate.
Connor Agnew:
Hahaha
Connor Agnew:
Yeah. But like you said, you can focus on the control aspect and control what you can. And it becomes a much different story for yourself.
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah, 100%, 100%.
Connor Agnew:
Well, Mike, I really appreciate you coming on, man. Seriously, I’ve really enjoyed my time with you. And I’ve obviously been very familiar with Move the Needle, but now I get to know you as a person, which is the cool aspect we talked about with the podcast hosting. If somebody wanted to listen to Move the Needle or learn more about your company and then learn more about yourself, what would be the best way to do that?
Mike Sullivan:
proud of social media. our move, the needle handle is MTN underscore perform on Instagram and on Twitter. every Wednesday we released an episode, feel free to tune in and we have a symposium coming up online symposium on May 17th. And then we have a couple more things coming out, this year personally, coach Mike Sully on Instagram and on Twitter. So feel free to reach out.
Happy to have conversations. I’m constantly asking people to have conversations with me as a podcast. I was always reaching out to people. whenever someone, whenever someone reaches out to me about having a conversation, I basically never turn them down.
Connor Agnew:
Hehehehe
Connor Agnew:
dude, it’s the best. And I’ve had people reach out before and say, you know, Hey, I’d like to be a guest on the podcast. That’s my favorite. I swear when somebody reaches out and it’s somebody who’s a, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I was already thinking about asking in the future or somebody I may, you know, I remember a coach reached out and who I thought I was like, no way he’d even want to come on. He was the one who reached out to me. And that was like the most ecstatic I ever was not to put that invitation out for your personal podcast, but it’s been a great experience for me for sure.
Mike Sullivan:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I will say though, Hunter and I, when we’re like going through like, dude, we’re going to do an episode every single week for the next how many weeks forever, I guess. And it’s like, how are we just going to, are we going to do that with like, like we’re going to out of guests at some point. And then, you know, we’re almost two straight years in and it’s like, we still have so many people we want to talk to. So it’s really cool that there are so many people in the world performance that we think are super, super interesting. And it just, it just makes, just makes our life lot easier. everybody who’s doing a great job, just keep doing a great job.
Connor Agnew:
Yeah.
Connor Agnew:
A thousand percent. The list keeps growing for me. Every time I think I get towards the end of it, all of sudden I’ve got five new people that are going to be interviewed next. Well, thanks Mike. I really appreciate you, man.
Mike Sullivan:
Absolutely.
Mike Sullivan:
No, appreciate you. Thank you.
